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	<title>Comments for Holy Cross Episcopal Church</title>
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		<title>Comment on Doubt 2: How Could a Good God Allow Suffering? by vicar</title>
		<link>http://www.holycross-weare.org/2010/02/13/doubt-2-how-could-a-good-god-allow-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-1783</link>
		<dc:creator>vicar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 22:31:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.holycross-weare.org/?p=1852#comment-1783</guid>
		<description>I like Laura&#039;s selection of quotes, and even more her statement that without suffering we would never grow up. As C said, God created us to be and act like grownups. So much of the &quot;skepticism&quot; Keller is arguing against boils down to people acting like spoiled children.

It&#039;s also wise to realize that &quot;it&#039;s God&#039;s will&quot; is way too simple a way to explain suffering and death. What we strive for is to find a basis for deeper faith, deeper hope, and truer love through our suffering -- not just grim resignation to a fate beyond us. God doesn&#039;t &quot;will&quot; things as though to play with us as pawns. He creates a dynamic world in which we are called to grow, give, and transform ourselves and the kingdom in the image of Christ. Thanks for the excellent responses!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like Laura&#8217;s selection of quotes, and even more her statement that without suffering we would never grow up. As C said, God created us to be and act like grownups. So much of the &#8220;skepticism&#8221; Keller is arguing against boils down to people acting like spoiled children.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also wise to realize that &#8220;it&#8217;s God&#8217;s will&#8221; is way too simple a way to explain suffering and death. What we strive for is to find a basis for deeper faith, deeper hope, and truer love through our suffering &#8212; not just grim resignation to a fate beyond us. God doesn&#8217;t &#8220;will&#8221; things as though to play with us as pawns. He creates a dynamic world in which we are called to grow, give, and transform ourselves and the kingdom in the image of Christ. Thanks for the excellent responses!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Doubt 2: How Could a Good God Allow Suffering? by Laura</title>
		<link>http://www.holycross-weare.org/2010/02/13/doubt-2-how-could-a-good-god-allow-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-1779</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 00:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.holycross-weare.org/?p=1852#comment-1779</guid>
		<description>So, how would we understand grace and forgiveness without suffering? Seems like we would never grow up. Not sure, but I think this fits, from Romans:

Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God.  
 
And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God&#039;s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, how would we understand grace and forgiveness without suffering? Seems like we would never grow up. Not sure, but I think this fits, from Romans:</p>
<p>Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God.  </p>
<p>And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God&#8217;s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Doubt 2: How Could a Good God Allow Suffering? by C</title>
		<link>http://www.holycross-weare.org/2010/02/13/doubt-2-how-could-a-good-god-allow-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-1774</link>
		<dc:creator>C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.holycross-weare.org/?p=1852#comment-1774</guid>
		<description>I agree that it is a hard concept to reconcile.  I particularly have problems with people who summarily explain away suffering (such as at a funeral, especially of a very young person) by saying &quot;it was God&#039;s will&quot;.  Grappling with the question of why God allows suffering is one thing, but to suggest that he purposely inflicts suffering makes understanding it that much harder.

I&#039;ve always felt that God created us as thinking, fairly intelligent and independent beings.  If we choose to create problems, then he has given us the means/intelligence/strength to deal with them.  I guess I kind of view God as a tough-love sort of parental figure - watching over us, helping where possible, but not smothering us in an effort to protect us from the world and suffering - especially that caused by natural disasters, disease, etc.  

I agree with Y - he is my strength to help deal with the pain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that it is a hard concept to reconcile.  I particularly have problems with people who summarily explain away suffering (such as at a funeral, especially of a very young person) by saying &#8220;it was God&#8217;s will&#8221;.  Grappling with the question of why God allows suffering is one thing, but to suggest that he purposely inflicts suffering makes understanding it that much harder.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always felt that God created us as thinking, fairly intelligent and independent beings.  If we choose to create problems, then he has given us the means/intelligence/strength to deal with them.  I guess I kind of view God as a tough-love sort of parental figure &#8211; watching over us, helping where possible, but not smothering us in an effort to protect us from the world and suffering &#8211; especially that caused by natural disasters, disease, etc.  </p>
<p>I agree with Y &#8211; he is my strength to help deal with the pain.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Doubt 2: How Could a Good God Allow Suffering? by Y</title>
		<link>http://www.holycross-weare.org/2010/02/13/doubt-2-how-could-a-good-god-allow-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-1766</link>
		<dc:creator>Y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.holycross-weare.org/?p=1852#comment-1766</guid>
		<description>I find suffering and pain to be one of the most difficult things to reconcile to the concept of a loving, omniscient and all powerful God. Assuming that God has complete control over all his works and loves this world, why would he let nature or humans create such pain and suffering? When it comes to suffering caused by other people&#039;s actions or inactions, it makes some sense that he would leave us to work things out. But when it comes to pain caused by natural disasters or illness, one would think a loving parent would want to protect his children.

But I don&#039;t agree with the logic that God allows us pain and suffering to provide growth opportunities. That&#039;s like saying &quot;Why did you hit your thumb with a hammer? Because it will feel so good when it stops hurting.&quot; Generally we don&#039;t assume that the result of an event is the reason for the event. How can we tell a mother who has lost her children to war or famine or earthquake that God let this happen to make her stronger? It seems like a convenient intellectual arguement for those of us who suffer very little.

Again, since this is one of those things I can&#039;t hope to understand, I put it down to God&#039;s ways and the way&#039;s of life. We have as much suffering and pain as we have. It is painful and hurts, sometimes too much to bear. Our job is to work through it and live the best we can, taking  care of those around us and trying to make their lives better. To me God isn&#039;t about the pain in the world, but he is my strength to deal with the pain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find suffering and pain to be one of the most difficult things to reconcile to the concept of a loving, omniscient and all powerful God. Assuming that God has complete control over all his works and loves this world, why would he let nature or humans create such pain and suffering? When it comes to suffering caused by other people&#8217;s actions or inactions, it makes some sense that he would leave us to work things out. But when it comes to pain caused by natural disasters or illness, one would think a loving parent would want to protect his children.</p>
<p>But I don&#8217;t agree with the logic that God allows us pain and suffering to provide growth opportunities. That&#8217;s like saying &#8220;Why did you hit your thumb with a hammer? Because it will feel so good when it stops hurting.&#8221; Generally we don&#8217;t assume that the result of an event is the reason for the event. How can we tell a mother who has lost her children to war or famine or earthquake that God let this happen to make her stronger? It seems like a convenient intellectual arguement for those of us who suffer very little.</p>
<p>Again, since this is one of those things I can&#8217;t hope to understand, I put it down to God&#8217;s ways and the way&#8217;s of life. We have as much suffering and pain as we have. It is painful and hurts, sometimes too much to bear. Our job is to work through it and live the best we can, taking  care of those around us and trying to make their lives better. To me God isn&#8217;t about the pain in the world, but he is my strength to deal with the pain.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Doubt 1: There Can&#8217;t Be Just One True Religion by vicar</title>
		<link>http://www.holycross-weare.org/2010/02/16/doubt-1-there-cant-be-just-one-true-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-1760</link>
		<dc:creator>vicar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 02:22:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.holycross-weare.org/?p=1841#comment-1760</guid>
		<description>The tricky thing here, to me, is that as soon as we set ourselves up as the judge of what is &quot;true,&quot; we put ourselves in the place of God -- which ends up being a lonely place. Orthodox Christianity would say that God chooses us, we don&#039;t choose him. That reverses the field, in effect. I think of orthodox belief (and we could talk a lot about what that term means) as being like a huge mansion or museum, into which I am invited. I may not understand at first what various exhibits mean (the Virgin Birth)but they&#039;re there for a reason, because people through the centuries found them meaningful, so I am invited to explore and discern their meaning for me. Do you see how this takes me out of the driver&#039;s seat, in effect? I have to say that I don&#039;t spend time thinking about Christianity versus other faiths. I don&#039;t know enough really about other faiths to evaluate them. I spend my time thinking about faith versus no faith, or faith in &quot;orthodox&quot; Christianity versus the sort of &quot;hold myself back,&quot; &quot;avoid commitment,&quot; &quot;play it cool&quot; stance that I see in so many &quot;secular&quot; people today -- and the shallowness and ultimate emptiness that I think that stance leads to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The tricky thing here, to me, is that as soon as we set ourselves up as the judge of what is &#8220;true,&#8221; we put ourselves in the place of God &#8212; which ends up being a lonely place. Orthodox Christianity would say that God chooses us, we don&#8217;t choose him. That reverses the field, in effect. I think of orthodox belief (and we could talk a lot about what that term means) as being like a huge mansion or museum, into which I am invited. I may not understand at first what various exhibits mean (the Virgin Birth)but they&#8217;re there for a reason, because people through the centuries found them meaningful, so I am invited to explore and discern their meaning for me. Do you see how this takes me out of the driver&#8217;s seat, in effect? I have to say that I don&#8217;t spend time thinking about Christianity versus other faiths. I don&#8217;t know enough really about other faiths to evaluate them. I spend my time thinking about faith versus no faith, or faith in &#8220;orthodox&#8221; Christianity versus the sort of &#8220;hold myself back,&#8221; &#8220;avoid commitment,&#8221; &#8220;play it cool&#8221; stance that I see in so many &#8220;secular&#8221; people today &#8212; and the shallowness and ultimate emptiness that I think that stance leads to.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Doubt 1: There Can&#8217;t Be Just One True Religion by Y</title>
		<link>http://www.holycross-weare.org/2010/02/16/doubt-1-there-cant-be-just-one-true-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-1758</link>
		<dc:creator>Y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.holycross-weare.org/?p=1841#comment-1758</guid>
		<description>I can understand Keller&#039;s point regarding religious relativism and non-belief being as strong a &quot;religion&quot; as any established religion. Sometimes this becomes a position that needs to be defended against all other opinions.

But, I think it is also an offshoot of our interaction with so many other beliefs. Because each religion has important things to say, non-churched people have trouble figuring out what the right path is for them. And because God is so far beyond us that we cannot know all of him, we can only grasp small pieces of understanding. It seems easier to take an all-or-nothing attitude than follow a path that may be found imperfect. 

For me Christianity provides guidance and spiritual support. I reject the fundamentalist beliefs that create disharmony and hurt to others and I accept that other religions are as meaningful and true to other people as Christianity is to me. 

Although this might be a more relativistic position than some might like, it allows me to serve God on the basis of my own understanding and tradition. I can take advantage of all the traditions and teachings of the church and scriptures without making it my responsibility to argue whether they are the only right way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can understand Keller&#8217;s point regarding religious relativism and non-belief being as strong a &#8220;religion&#8221; as any established religion. Sometimes this becomes a position that needs to be defended against all other opinions.</p>
<p>But, I think it is also an offshoot of our interaction with so many other beliefs. Because each religion has important things to say, non-churched people have trouble figuring out what the right path is for them. And because God is so far beyond us that we cannot know all of him, we can only grasp small pieces of understanding. It seems easier to take an all-or-nothing attitude than follow a path that may be found imperfect. </p>
<p>For me Christianity provides guidance and spiritual support. I reject the fundamentalist beliefs that create disharmony and hurt to others and I accept that other religions are as meaningful and true to other people as Christianity is to me. </p>
<p>Although this might be a more relativistic position than some might like, it allows me to serve God on the basis of my own understanding and tradition. I can take advantage of all the traditions and teachings of the church and scriptures without making it my responsibility to argue whether they are the only right way.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Doubt 1: There Can&#8217;t Be Just One True Religion by vicar</title>
		<link>http://www.holycross-weare.org/2010/02/16/doubt-1-there-cant-be-just-one-true-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-1757</link>
		<dc:creator>vicar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.holycross-weare.org/?p=1841#comment-1757</guid>
		<description>A turning point in my own life came when a teacher in my first year in college challenged our class: &quot;You can&#039;t just go through life in moral neutral. There is no moral neutral -- that in itself is a moral stance. You&#039;re here to decide what you believe and to learn to express and defend it.&quot; That wasn&#039;t the only thing that led me to get serious about my faith and church, but it was part of a series of things that happened to me that year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A turning point in my own life came when a teacher in my first year in college challenged our class: &#8220;You can&#8217;t just go through life in moral neutral. There is no moral neutral &#8212; that in itself is a moral stance. You&#8217;re here to decide what you believe and to learn to express and defend it.&#8221; That wasn&#8217;t the only thing that led me to get serious about my faith and church, but it was part of a series of things that happened to me that year.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Doubt 1: There Can&#8217;t Be Just One True Religion by Laura</title>
		<link>http://www.holycross-weare.org/2010/02/16/doubt-1-there-cant-be-just-one-true-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-1756</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 01:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.holycross-weare.org/?p=1841#comment-1756</guid>
		<description>I totally agree that *not* believing often seems as zealous as any religious stance.  When I was in college I had some of these relativistic leanings myself, but found that it always seemed to come up short in the end. Finally, I felt that there was no very good reason to reinvent religion just so it fit my sensibility (at the time) and understood that I would learn more if I just listened. 

I wonder if I would feel the same if I had grown up in India or the Middle East and speak openly with collegues who&#039;s religious views are very strongly held in these cultures to try to understand the difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree that *not* believing often seems as zealous as any religious stance.  When I was in college I had some of these relativistic leanings myself, but found that it always seemed to come up short in the end. Finally, I felt that there was no very good reason to reinvent religion just so it fit my sensibility (at the time) and understood that I would learn more if I just listened. </p>
<p>I wonder if I would feel the same if I had grown up in India or the Middle East and speak openly with collegues who&#8217;s religious views are very strongly held in these cultures to try to understand the difference.</p>
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